welcomeAbout moneyA series where we interview people about their relationships with money, their relationships with each other, and how those relationships inform each other.
Jackie Philosoph is 59 years old and lives in the suburbs of Chicago. his business, Divorced girl smilingA media company that connects people facing divorce with trusted, verified divorce professionals. Michelle Heffron is 63 years old and lives in the suburbs of Seattle. He is a certified Relationship and Divorce Coachwho provide practical and emotional support to clients as they navigate the legal process and enter life after divorce.
The following conversation has been lightly condensed and edited.
Jackie Philosopher: I got divorced in 2008. I am 41 years old and have two children. I had no family in my town, and I didn’t know a single divorced person. The internet was not what it is today and I did not have a good experience. I felt alone and isolated. I didn’t have a divorce team of professionals to help me. It wasn’t really a thing yet! Neither was a divorce coach. It was a really, really hard time for me.
This story first appeared in The Highlight.
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I didn’t want other women to go through what I did. They should have a community of support. So I started blogging. I started my blog in 2014 and it took off very quickly. People can relate. Then, after a few years, I thought “I’m not a divorce coach, I’m not an attorney, I’m not a mediator, I’m a journalist who loves to write. I want to partner with divorce professionals who can help these women in other ways.”
So I started curating the best of the best. Divorced Girl Smiling There isn’t a person I wouldn’t do business with. They are all vetted, not only by me but also by my advisory board.
Michelle Heffron: I have two divorces. My second was 15 years ago. I had a career, and then I decided to be a stay-at-home mom. Returning to the workforce after that was absolutely terrifying and very challenging. This was my second abusive marriage, verbally, emotionally and financially. I didn’t have a credit card. I moved out of our house. I didn’t think I had any rights as a stay-at-home mom who didn’t contribute financially to the family. I had a daughter in college and a son going to middle school and I was scared. I felt alone. I had family and friends around, but I don’t think anyone understood what you were going through at that time
One of the mistakes was using my attorney as my therapist. It was very expensive therapy, and it didn’t really help me. It’s not that they don’t care, but it’s not their deal, and they charge you by the minute!
Jackie: I did the same. I would call my divorce attorney and cry. My attorney was filling shoes he was not qualified to fill, and charging me for it.
While there is a place for divorce attorneys — you need one to get a divorce, in most cases — they’re only a small percentage of what you need. They are only doing 25 percent of what you need to do to get a divorce. You need a therapist, and you need a divorce coach.
Michelle: I facilitate mental clarity and stability. I also encourage personal responsibility, because no matter what anyone says, everyone owns some part of a relationship’s downfall, even if the other party is 97 percent responsible for the damage. I really help prevent costly decision-making based on values rather than resentment, which I think is a really important thing. Sometimes people can spend a lot to make a point, even though it gets them nowhere.
Jackie: One of your first calls [when you’re considering divorce] Be a mortgage lender to see if you can afford to stay in your home. Your divorce attorney cannot help you with this.
The business of divorce is changing. You need a team for divorce, and that can include divorce coaches, therapists, mortgage lenders, real estate agents — and all of these people have divorce credentials. People think that means you’re going to spend a lot of money, but I think you’re going to spend less because you’re not calling an attorney who charges by the hour.
Michelle: When we were going through our divorce, we didn’t have all of these certifications. “Having a team” means stacking up lawyers. There is more of a collaborative philosophy [these days]Working together with coaches and attorneys – and that doesn’t mean your divorce is going to be more amicable, but it’s just a different approach.
Jackie: Which I see a lot [in my work] Women, especially, do not take the financial burden of a marriage. When a marriage ends, they are financially in the dark. They don’t see the statements, they don’t know how much money they have, and the mistake is not empowering yourself in the beginning, either when you think you’re going to get divorced or when you think something is wrong.
Maybe your ex is going to start hiding money, maybe you’re not going to get such a big deal. See a financial advisor who specializes in divorce and start the conversation.
I tell women all the time, if you’re intimidated by numbers and you’re nervous and you feel crazy – first of all, don’t get mad at yourself. It’s never too late to be financially empowered. You will feel much better if you have numbers in front of you. You’ll know what’s going on financially so you can make better decisions about your divorce.
Michelle: It’s important to get all the facts without making assumptions based on what your wife is telling you — or what happened with your sister or your friend down the road, because your situation will never be the same as anyone else’s. Get your tax returns and your bank statements and all the documents together, so when you go to a financial advisor they’ll have all of these things on their table.
Jackie also mentions going to a certified divorce real estate broker or mortgage broker, because if you own a home, there’s a lot going on that you don’t know about. It is not a given that one will get a house or not. Many people think that they must own their home and sometimes this is not possible. I see it more with women — they get the house and then they get hit with a big tax bill that they didn’t expect, and then they get extra jobs so they can pay the taxes.
For me, my husband owned the house before we got married, and it’s a relief not to have the house because I couldn’t afford it even if I fought for it. But I didn’t stand for what I should have gotten from that house. There was so much information I didn’t know, and I was so afraid to tip the apple cart with my ex that I didn’t go after what I could get.
Surround yourself with people you can trust, so you can get information and make decisions, not just pass it on so you can get it done.
Jackie: My kids were three and five when I got divorced, and college was never discussed. huge mistake You don’t want to keep going back to court. If you have a good lawyer, your lawyer will cover everything — and even if it changes, at least you have something. Everything is constantly changing. People remarry, someone can lose their job, you can always change — but if you don’t even discuss it, you’ll end up in court every five years as these kids grow up. I was constantly in court with litigation.
Michelle: It’s also about not putting kids in the middle. I don’t care how mature you think your child is, they are a child. You need to think about how they are absorbing the information they are collecting.
In my case, I had a 20 year old and a 10 year old. A 20-year-old might hear a lot of different things, but your 10-year-old doesn’t really need to hear those things.
Jackie: Also, when you talk negatively about your ex in front of their kids, it really hurts them. I did it, and I’m ashamed of it, but we’re human too. You need to give yourself a break and try not to do it as much as possible.
Michelle: It is very easy to do.
Jackie: That’s why you have a divorce coach and a therapist to talk to!
Michelle: There are many things you have to think about with children. If they are really good at sports or ballet? What if they want piano lessons? What if they start driving? You need a living document that can be modified that spells out financial responsibility for each parent — and if you have a spouse who doesn’t share them, which happens a lot, at least you have the document to go back to.
Jackie: When the kids turn 18 and there is no more child support but you may still have to deal with expenses like college, you have to hope that the parents are in a place where they can deal amicably with each other and come to an agreement on their own. That’s really what they teach you in mediation. They teach you how to co-parent for the rest of your life.
Michelle: As long as the parents are on the same page.
Jackie: But some are on the same page after mediation!
Michelle: That is the most important part.
